28 December 2010

A Rather Contentious and Pointless Will vs. Jem Battle

So, I have this friend, Brightskin. And Brightskin is a really huge Will-hater. (William Herondale from Clockwork Angel by Cassandra Clare.) So obviously she is on Team Jem. I love Will and Jem equally, so I'm Team Undecided Until Next Book, but for this argument I took Will's side. Behold - our nonsensical, irritating, totally useless argument:

Brightskin : Will is stupid.
Bookworm :  Actually, he is quite smart. He is very clever, and his skills as a battle technician are vaunted by Charlotte.
Brightskin :  Jem is the bomb because he's so sensitive and nice to Tessa.
Bookworm :  Will is trying to be nice in his own way - by protecting Tessa from himself.
Brightskin :  If he wants to protect her he shouldn't make out with her.
Bookworm :  He can't help himself. He loves her.
Brightskin :  Jem loves her too but you don't see him all over her all the time.
Bookworm :  That's because he's a bit shy. And I don't think he's completely in love with her yet. Their feelings are developing.
Brightskin :  And if Will loves her so much and wants to protect her he shouldn't be groping her with every opportunity.
Bookworm :  He is not 'groping her with every opportunity'. In fact, he is trying to stay away from her and is unable to resist at times. This shows that he cares for her.
Brightskin :  Then why did he suggest they have sex?
Bookworm :  He was purposely trying to push her away - he knew she would be upset.
Brightskin :  Upset enough to leave the Institute, which is really bad for her safety. If he loved her, why would he do that?
Bookworm :  Not upset enough to leave the Institute, upset enough to leave him alone.
Brightskin :  Why would he hurt her like that if he loved her?
Bookworm :  We've been through this. Because he's trying to protect her from himself and his dark secret.
Brightskin :  That's irrelevant. If he truly loves her he should tell her the secret.
Bookworm :  That's not a fair argument - we don't know what the secret is yet. It might turn Tessa into a brooding, antisocial, jerky person too.
Brightskin :  Well then, it's obvious that she shouldn't be with Will if knowing the real him would make her farouche.
Bookworm :  Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't. We don't know the secret, so we can't judge.
Brightskin :  You just said above it would. Are you contradicting yourself?
Bookworm :  I said it might.
Brightskin :  Jem, on the other hand, opened up about his secret. Shows that he truly cares about her and is willing to be honest with her.
Bookworm :  Maybe Will isn't able to tell her the secret.
Brightskin :  Well if he cant tell her he shouldn't be with her, for her safety more than anything else.
Bookworm :  Love cannot be controlled. And once again, he pushes her away. And goes to Magnus Bane, probably to get help.
Brightskin : Who knows, maybe he's a deranged psychopath vampire werewolf hybrid that's impersonating a Shadowhunter.
Bookworm :  Hmmm, he could be.
Brightskin : And love can be controlled.
Bookworm :  As in, you can't control who you do and do not love.
Brightskin :  But you can control HOW you love them and Will isn't doing a good job of that. What if he starts making out with her or having sex with her and then he accidentally kills her because his love is uncontrollable?
Bookworm :   That is ridiculous.
Brightskin :  You are ridiculous.
Bookworm :  Will is not like the vampires in Twilight.
Brightskin :  Your face is ridiculous. IRRELEVANT.
Bookworm : I am pleased we are so mature.
Brightskin : Lol. Who knows? Maybe that is his big secret, that he's a savage sex monster.
Bookworm :  No. Just no. What other objections do you have to Will, besides that he hasn't told Tessa his secret and he's possibly a savage sex monster?
Brightskin :  "No. Just no." What an argument, please back it up.
Bookworm :  All right, that was unfair of me.
Brightskin :  Indeed it was.
Bookworm :  But please do respond to my question.
Brightskin :  Respond to my contention first.
Bookworm :  Okay. So, which argument specifically?
Brightskin :  That what if Will is a savage sex monster. And not that scenario specifically but the fact that we don't know how radical or dangerous his secret really is and if it is truly better to be safe than sorry then why go with Will? Stay with Jem. We know his problems, we know his true personality, we know him. We don't know Will.
Bookworm :  All right. True, we don't know what Will's secret is. But we know that it has something to do with the box, with his parents, with his contentious attitude, and is the reason he's afraid to get too close to anyone, except Jem. But whatever his secret is, he is trying to protect Tessa from it. If Will really is a savage sex monster and that's his secret, then he definitely knows better than to get too close to Tessa. Hence, he is a huge jerk to her so that he's sure she won't try to get close to him. Now, please do me the honor of answering my question.
Brightskin :  Hold on, let me respond to your argument. So we know for sure that he's a "huge jerk", so why the hell would we want him to get with her?
Bookworm :  He's a huge jerk at times. But sometimes he shows his soft and caring side.
Brightskin :  But he shouldn't because he isn't safe for Tessa.
Bookworm :  For the millionth time. He realizes he's not safe for Tessa. So he pushes her away at the end. Please voice your other objections to him.
Brightskin :  Okay then, Will doesn't want to get with Tessa, Tessa doesn't want to get with Will because he's a "huge jerk" to her, where's the conflict? Debate resolved.
Bookworm :  Will wants to get with Tessa. Tessa wants to get with Will. But Will knows that's not good, so he pushes her away and makes her think he doesn't want to get with her. That is the conflict. Plus, Will is hotter than Jem.
Brightskin :  Will doesn't want to get with Tessa and that's why he keeps pushing her away! Tessa doesn't want to get with Will because he was so insensitive and suggested they have sex. Whether it was on purpose or not is irrelevant. And "hotness" is not something which can be decided.
Bookworm :  You are being a blinded oaf. If you say this is irrelevant I shall throw you to the cannibal ducks. And OF COURSE pushing her away was on purpose.
Brightskin :  IRRELEVANCE.
Bookworm :  To the cannibal ducks you go, then.
Bookworm :  But in Clockwork Prince Tessa will learn of his secret.
Brightskin :  But we don't know what happens in that book now do we?
Bookworm :  We shall see what happens.
Brightskin :  Will and Tessa don't want to get with each other.
Bookworm :  Tessa is definitely attracted to Will, as evidenced by her thinking of him as the most beautiful boy she has ever seen, as evidenced by how she is affected by his presence, as evidenced by the fact that they kiss and she enjoys it, and as evidenced by the fact that she is hurt when he pushes her away.
Brightskin :  He pushes her away in such a manner that she believes that he is cruel himself even though that might not be the case in reality.
Bookworm :  Will is definitely attracted to Tessa, as evidenced by how he is jealous when Jem kisses her hand, as evidenced by how he holds her when he thinks she's dead, and as evidenced by how he admits she is what makes him laugh.
Brightskin :  But he doesn't want to get with her as evident by the fact that he pushes her away.
Bookworm :  That doesn't mean Tessa isn't attracted to Will, it just means she's upset with him. He wants to get with her, but knows he shouldn't because of his secret.
Brightskin :  So they won't! Want is different from should. I want to burn many people in bonfires but I shouldn't so I won't. It's not the question of whether or not they're attracted to each other, it's the question of whether or not they want to get with each other.
Bookworm :  This is 1878 London. There is no such thing as 'dating' or 'getting with someone'. There is being attracted, falling in love, and getting married. You never know. Will's secret could be resolved.
Brightskin :  BUT THEY CAN'T GET MARRIED CAN THEY YOU FOOL BECAUSE HE'S A SHADOWHUNTER AND SHES A WARLOCK. Well, many things could happen. Will could die but AT THIS POINT they shouldn't and won't. The end (:
Bookworm :  Will could be turned into a vampire. He could become immortal some other way, or he could die. But that doesn't mean that he didn't/doesn't/won't love Tessa, and vice versa.
Brightskin : It's not about loving, it's about commitment. I love many people but I'm not going to get with or marry all of them.
Bookworm :  ......
Brightskin :  Did you just concede to my argument?
Bookworm :  The entire premise of the argument is who Tessa should choose, Will or Jem, because of how much they love her/she loves them. So far, you've mostly argued against Will. What about arguing for Jem?
Brightskin :  Will = rude, unstable, neurotic. Jem = kindhearted, honest, loving, caring.
Bookworm :  Will = rude, unstable, neurotic, and cares for Tessa. Jem = kindhearted, honest, loving, caring, and dying. Quickly. Will = has a possibility of redemption. Jem = will die.
Brightskin :  But maybe not because Tessa is determined to search for a cure for him
Bookworm :  What if she doesn't find one? What then?
Brightskin :  So the only thing, in your opinion, that makes Will better than Jem is that Will will live longer? What if Will dies in battle? What then?
Bookworm :  No. But I'm saying we shouldn't judge before we know Will's secret. And regardless of whether Will dies young, Tessa is going to be left without either of them eventually.
Brightskin: What's the point of this? I'm bored.

THE VERDICT: We must wait for Clockwork Prince!

However, it would be lovely to hear YOUR thoughts! Will or Jem, and why?


  1. I laughed so hard reading this. It is so epic, and the ends on such an anti-climactic note,

    Brightskin: What's the point of this? I'm bored.

    This is made of awesome.

  2. Savage sex monster? Hahaha I love it!

  3. The obvious argument here is that we don't know enough about ANY of the characters yet to be advocating so fiercely about them. We don't know WHAT Tessa is yet. I don't believe she's a warlock. I think she's something we may not know about yet. Jem is APPARENTLY a good and kind man, but we have no idea how deeply that goes, and people can be changed in a flash by something that happens to them. What if Jem has some horribly scarring event in CP that makes him an even bigger jerk than Will?
    You also simply cannot get around the fact that we DO NOT know why Will is the way he is. He's TRYING to be good and stay away from Tessa for whatever reason, but no one is perfect and he has slipped up. Will seems to me to be a deeply troubled guy with who knows what kind of buried secrets? What if he went through some horribly scarring incident in his youth that has made him the semi-jerk he is? Psychotherapy wasn't around in 1878. The boy has issues. Lots and lots of them, and one shouldn't rush to judgment on anyone, especially when we really don't have much information to go on. I never pick sides this early in a series. I know my opinion of a character could be drastically altered in the next chapter.

  4. I agree with Bookworm on all aspects of Will!

  5. Love it?

    I am team Will. I know, he's a jerk but I'm a sucker for the brown hair + blue eyes thing he has going. I don't feel like I know Jem very well yet. I'm sure that will change for CP so then I may struggle to choose my team.

    Can't wait.

  6. First of all, I think that Brightskin was I little imature.
    And I agree with everything Bookworm said.

    Team Will all the way.

  7. I feel that, while Jem is a sweetheart and kind, Will is more compatible with Tessa. oth are impetuous in the own way and personally, I feel sexual tension is a LOT stronger between Tessa-Will than Tessa-Jem. Plus, Will reminds me of Rhett Butler (and Jem kinda Ashley Wilkes, tho less pansy like) Tessa may like, even love, Jem, but ultimately I think she would feel like something is missing in the long-term. And of course there is that whole, dying of mysterious demon disease thing that might put a bit of a damper on any Tessa-Jem relationship

  8. Hilarious argument! Though a bit too intense at times I'd think :) I side with Bookworm because I do think that Will loves Tessa more, so far as we can see in Clockwork Angel. The ploy to get Tessa to sleep with him is simply that- a ploy. It's quite obvious, really, that he doesn't mean it, that he doesn't actually expect Tessa to have sex with him. It's to alienate Tessa, to keep her at an arm's length because he apparently thinks that his secret is too dangerous and he doesn't want Tessa to get close to him and discover what it is. He is not a savage sex monster cause if he was he wouldn't have pushed Tessa away in the attic- he'd have taken it all the way to home base! Instead he shoves her off because he wants to protect her.

    And as for Tessa's attraction to Will- honestly I don't think there's any question there that she does love him. Or likes him, at the very least. Why does she seek him out first thing (before Jem too, I might add) when Charlotte tells her that she can stay at the Institute? Why does she care for his injury, and kiss him even (first kiss, too!) unless she feels attracted to him? Plus I'm super excited because Cassie Clare's said that we'll be finding out Will's secret in Clockwork Prince! Jem is nice and polite and all that but he's droll compared to Will. Jem is someone I'd want for myself in real life but in these fictional worlds? Will ftw :) 

  9. This was hilarious!! And I'm team Will because he is an handsome and tortured!

  10. Jem's boring, seriously. Just the fact that there's a lot more interection - heated I mean - between Will and Tessa rather than Jem and Tessa, I'd say this is a hinter for who we should pick. Will is troubled, yes. A Jerk, yes. But that's so obviously a façade you just can't use it against him. Jem is just so nice and patient you can't help but doze off.

  11. That was highly entertaining even when it was a little scary. I've just finished the book the other day and I really like both characters, but I can see how Will is trying to push her away not because he wants to, but because he feels he has to.

    I'm not going to go for either young man though because I don't know everything yet and I prefer to see where the story goes.

  12. Jem is a fantastic character.
    It's so refreshing to see a character that faces a massive problem still be so polite and caring.
    I hope he is happy with whoever makes him happiest!
    Btw I disagree on him being "boring".
    If being sick but still managing to fight off clockwork armies is boring then I hope me and you never hang out :)

  13. I am horrified to find so many people trying to rationalize Will's cruelty with such reasons as "it's a facade" and "he's trying to protect her". Why should we make excuses for a guy to treat someone like a jerk? Will is, straight out, an asshole, and if he cares for Tessa, he's going about it the wrong way. I realize he's hindered by his secret and he feels he needs to protect her from that, but he's gone about really cruel ways of doing so. And honestly, I would be very disappointed if Tessa DID run into Will's arms, because I'd expect someone like her to have some self-respect and dignity.

    Yes, Will is intelligent, and he shares "heated moments" with Tessa, but sometimes, passion can be bad, too. We forget that. We think it's all like the classics, like Rhett Butler and Scarlet O'Hara, but it's not. Will is a liar, he's a jerk, and I don't care if he's "protecting" her. You know what a possessive boyfriend says when he yells at his girlfriend for hanging out with another guy?

    He's "protecting" her.

    People forget - love isn't always meant to be tumultuous or heated. Love is meant to be shared between two people. People claim Jem to be boring, but thus far, Jem hasn't done anything to purposely hurt Tessa. Jem and Tessa have an honest connection, one in which they can be honest with each other. Love is also a TENDER passion. It doesn't have to be about banter and being up in each other's faces. I LIKE that Jem is proper and polite - Tessa is, too. And I think that works for the two of them.

    But I honestly feel we shouldn't be making excuses for Will, especially as Tessa doesn't know why he's being a jerk. And by being a jerk, he very well COULD be pushing her to Jem. He's a self-sacrificing sort, after all.

    And let's remember - this is Cassandra Clare we're talking about. She LOVES to throw in twists. I wouldn't at all be surprised if Tessa CAN find a cure for his disease.

  14. This was hilarious! Laughed so hard reading it!! :D
    I agree with bookworm, because I'm all for TEAM WILL!
    Jem IS boring. He's too shy to do anything. Will is a jerk. I agree with that, but he's hotter than Jem, and LOVES tessa. That's why he wants to protect her. Will and Tessa could get married. Things haven't normal for Tessa so far anyways.
    So basically, you can clearly see that Will loves Tessa.
    Jem, is just nice, and shy, that he doesn't even make a move with tessa. All he did was kiss her hand. In Will's case, Will and Tessa kissed, twice i think?(correct me if i'm wrong)

  15. Fun stuff. The dialogue was very amusing. :)

    I just temporarily ignore Will x Tessa or Jem x Tessa and secretly ship a Will x Jem fandom. :) <3

    I can't wait for the next book to find out more!

  16. I'm also team undecided until next book. Kinda leaning towards Jem though. Although i understand her attraction to Will. -shrug- i have a strong feeling there will be alot of me yelling at the book.

  17. Team Jem!
    I don't like Will... but i'll wait to Clockwork Prince to judge him...

    Jem is so cute, and a very good person... And so hawt =3

  18. I'm still team Undecided, 'cause I don't know enough of all the characters + Cassie has said that CA was more about Will and Tessa and CP will be more about Jem and Tessa, or something like that. One could say I'm team Tessa!

    But a hilarious conversation :D

  19. Jem is the reasonable choice for Tessa. He is nice, kind, caring, everything that women look for in a man except for the fact that he is dying. Will is the not so reasonable choice for Tessa but does have that bad boy appeal. What teenage girl doesn't like that? And yes, Will could die and Tessa could find the cure for Jem but those are all 'what ifs'. Besides, Will is going to come out with his secret eventually it's not that Tessa isn't ever going to know. He just wants to keep it hidden for the time being because he isn't the type of person that likes to open up about things and his secret could obviously be of harm to their relationship. Or maybe he's just not ready for her to know. We don't know. All I know is that this book needs to be out already so I can find out what happens!

    P.s. Your argument was so funny xD

  20. Team Jem :)
    He is a beautiful person and he deserves to spend his last days with someone who loves him dearly..

    However I see him more as the brother/best friend type for Tessa though I suppose there wasn't anything like that in those times :(

    Though I don't fantasy Will being with Tessa either.. He doesn't deserve her... Secret or not :)

  21. I love this series so far!! I can't wait for the next book. Especially to see how the main characters develop. As of right now, I would have to say I am Team Will. I was extremely ticked at him at the end of the book, but I have a feeling that he's going to grow into a better person once he's not carrying the weight of his secret. He reminds me so much of Jace- it makes perfect sense that they're related somehow. And it is partly because of the fact that he and Jace are so alike that I hold a candle for Will- Jace turned out just fine. Jem has many great qualities, but Will is just irresistible.

  22. This was highly entertaining. Thank you!! You guys seriously cracked me up.

    Team Will! He's the one that is always there when she needs him. He's the one that rescued her. He's the one she loves. I'm sure she loves Jem, but not the same way. Will is tortured, but Bookworm is right, he loves her. We see this for sure when he thinks she's dead and he mentions that he's lost everything. Who says that, that doesn't love that person? Jem will step aside if it all works out, because he loves Will and Tessa and I think deep down he wants his friends to be happy. It won't happen right away, but it will happen.

    Personally, I don't want to read about Tessa and Jem together. There's not a lot to read, he loves her, he doesn't have any more secrets (that we know of). Kinda boring. Don't get me wrong. I do love Jem. I just love him without Tessa. Will is the mystery. Will has secrets we all want to know. He is cruel but protective. He's suffering and will be for a long time *sigh*

    It's great to see everyone's opinions! Can't wait to read CP!!!

  23. oh wow. I completely agree with Bookworm in this argument and that Brightskin should be thrown to the cannibal ducks. They weren't thinking before saying haha
    but it is true. we need to learn more about the characters before coming to conclusions, because all we know about Will is that he has this burdening secret, but we don't know what and all we know about Jem is his illness. We need to know more, because we only know a minimal amount about each character.

  24. I must say I'm in love with Jem, whereas Will can go dive into a vat of oil and fester for all I care.

    Team Jem all the way~

  25. I love Will! That's not to say I don't like Jem either because I think it's possible to like both. But, saying that, I'm team Will/Tessa for sure. I have a theory. In COG Clary sees Tessa and Magnus talking to eachother at the end of the book and she says that Tessa seems familiar to her. I think it's because Jace is Tessa and Will's descendant (great-great-great grandson?).

  26. Team Will! Well, actually, more Team Undecided Until the Next Book but as of now, I'm leaning more towards Will for Tessa. I really like the two of them together and I agree with the well-thought out responses made by Bookworm.

  27. O my! I love this. I agree it is pointless. It is like arguing Jacob versus Edward (it doesn't change the ending), although I feel that Cassie will be much more clever than Myers! I am strangely attracted to Will and feel that she will probably end up with him, but by the end of the book I was being pulled towards Jem! Remember, we do not know for sure that Tessa is a warlock; she could be something completely unheard of! I wouldn't put anything pass Cassandra Clare!

  28. this is so freaking awesome!

  29. HAHAHAHA... so funny :)

  30. HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! This is hilarious

  31. Christina Foss1/1/11, 12:16 PM

    I totally agree with Bookworm in this discussion, and that is mostly because Brightskins arguments were immature and bad. Totally hilarious discussion, though! :D

    I don't really like this "team" thing... It's exactly like it was with Team-Edward and Team-Jacob, and I didn't choose sides then either. You see, I like both Jem and Will, but I just think that Will is more right for Tessa than Jem; and don't ask me why, I just do ;) My way of thinking is this: Tessa fits best with Will, and so they get together, and Jem will be with someone else; Sophie! :D

    Anyway, there is no doubt that Will loves Tessa and that Tessa loves Will; he is keeping away from her and being a jerk to her because he is PROTECTING HER FROM HIMSELF! When we are reading from Wills point of view he keeps thinking "I have lost everything", and then we get the impression that he thinks he have lost everything and that he thinks he can never be happy. Now, he doesn't want to drag Tessa down with him, so he pushes her away so she can one day be happy without him! If that is "being a jerk", well then so be it! If he really were a jerk he would have gotten together with her from the start, and wouldn't have cared whether she was hurt by his secret or not. Instead he keeps away from her, even though he hurts himself in the process! He thinks it's better to hurt her a little bit now so she will keep away from him, than that his secret will hurt her a lot in the future when she is much more involved with him and when they have gotten the time to fall even deeper in love with one another!

    The problem is this: Tessa already loves him! Brightskin said something about her stopping to care for him because he's such a jerk, but you know what?! It's quite impossible to stop loving someone just because the person acts like a jerk! I would know; I have personal experience with it... Will be continued in the next comment.....

  32. Christina Foss1/1/11, 12:18 PM

    …..Brightskin also said this: "It's not about loving, it's about commitment. I love many people but I'm not going to get with or marry all of them." We are, for everyones information, talking about BEING IN LOVE with someone! Will is IN LOVE with Tessa, Tessa is IN LOVE with Will! It's quite obvious to me that Brightskin is arguing like a child, because she also says that Will and Tessa won't ever be together because "Will and Tessa don't want to get with each other", and that is just STUPID! Of course they want to be with each other! It is completely OBVIOUS in the book! No one can say that they won't be together yet anyway, because there are TWO MORE BOOKS! We can't say anything for sure yet at all (except that they are in love with each other now, which of course may change. For now, Cassandra is the only one who knows :P )!

    When it comes to Jem, I really love him! He is so nice, kind, truthful, caring and has a lot of other great qualities! I just don't see him with Tessa, that's all.. I DO NOT think he's boring though! I think he's brave and safe, and I think he should be with Sophie. She loves him, so why can't they be together? Of course I hope they find a cure for him, if not I'm gonna cry my eyes out :'(

    We don't know Will's secret, but according to Cassandra Clare we are finding out in the next book. Of course everything can take a different turn, and maybe then I will think Jem and Tessa are more fitting for each other, but this is where I stand now. I think people should stop being so square; some of you really need to try and see things from every perspective! We also need to look at the facts, what Clockwork Angel says. See, the book is what we need to follow, and when the book obviously says that Tessa loves Will, and Will loves Tessa, then why are people arguing about it? That is what I don't understand...

    Anyway, I LOVE THESE BOOKS! Thanks to Cassandra Clare for being such a GENIOUS! :D

  33. Yeah! I agree with thinking Tessa is NOT a warlock, I'm thinking more like an experiment [didn't the Magister say Tessa was carefully planned or so?] so maybe her mom had a spelled put on her or on her parents and Tessa has just a fragment of magical something...? I just do not believe Tessa and Will could be separated by anything other than themselves. Can't wait for Clockwork Prince!!!

  34. Savage sex monster! LOL
    I adore Jem but I also like Will
    Will reminds me sooo much of Jace and I really like Jace but Jem is just so nice and he is a perfect boy the only problem is that he is dying :( I am stuck between these two characters! But at the end of clockwork angel Jace was such a jerk and Jem was there for Tessa to help her! Can't wait for Clockwork prince

  35. This made me laugh a lot, but I'm definitely on Brightskin's side.
    Tessa should be with Jem because he actually gives a shit and shows it. Will... I'm still undecided about Will. Maybe when his secret is revealed I'll like him more but right now... not so much.
    But that's beside the point. Tessa should be with Jem because Jem is sweet and kind and he cares about her a lot. And I didn't like that comment about him not being hot. I'd say he is, in his own way (:

  36. I love them both. But if I absolutely HAD to choose, I would have to go with Will. Who knows what happened to him in the past? It's not right to judge someone when you don't know what they've been through. Will could've been through hell, and Shinyskin or whatever his name was is totally being baised about it. I agree about everything he/she said about Jem, but Will shouldn't be judged so hard. He's only human...or shadowhunter. I totally agreed with Bookworm about everything that was said about Will. Except the hot thing. I mean Will is incredibly HOT, but that's not what makes him so amazing.